I have sent multiple e-mails to PowerBASIC support asking what the issues might be with my forum access and account. My request for any response has been ignored. At one point I could post then I could only download attachments and now I can't do anything. :P
Maybe buying something I don't need would do it. :)
That are already again alarmingly news.
If you wish it, I could publish your here written words in the cafe of the US-Forum.
And with the request to answer of your emails.
Thanks Norbert for your kind offer but I'm not a current customer and it's a commercial offering. If PB was freeware or open source I could claim bias.
Is it just me or does it seem like the PB Experience has come to a screeching halt? José Roca hardly posts anymore and the PB forum seems like ghosts wondering the halls.
What is your take on what is going on.
I have noticed the same.
PB's break point occured on november 6, 2012, "point final".
Hopefully somebody will buy the company and put ne light in the offices.
The problem with PB was always that their bussiness model did not pay out unlike for example PureBasic (that was even cheaper),
They made some huge mistakes in the fields of
- customer contributions
- free new versions
- pricing
While PureBasic did not make these mistakes, they took a lot of the market away.
A person who is really good in Software Marketing could make money with this compiler.
I wonder that nobody uses this chance.
Their latest PowerGrade sale was pitiful marketing. The only notice of the sale, I think, was a strange post in the Product Annoucement Forum to the effect "Has anyone noticed the sale?". To me, this is the one thing they could have gotten right. I understand that further development in assembler would be daunting (much less porting the source to C or even PowerBasic itself), but product marketing should be something executed as common business practice - especially since these go on periodically so a pattern should be in place. With so many free or cheaper development options out there, PowerBasic has to justify its relative more expensive cost.
A note: What set Powerbasic a part as a community was a group of professional programmers that used PowerBasic in their work which lifted Powerbasic above the "hobby" status of most of the alternative development options. They would share their knowledge and code snippets with others. With many of these types losing interest, the Powerbasic language is in "hobby" status and does not justify a premium cost.
My guess is that they do not know exactly all the changes in the last update so being vague is the path they have chosen. Bob's documentation was probably not complete on his last good build which was probably what we saw in 10.04. I chose not to update and stick with 10.03 for now. I am sure they can not write a HISTORY.TXT for these reasons.
Theo
Don't fool yourself, nobody will ever be able to take over Bob's work.
Speaking for myself, i am very glad that i never put all my eggs into the same basket.
The PowerBASIC forum, is now the private yard of the nostalgic, and the lost DDTer's.
Quote from: Patrice Terrier on July 12, 2013, 05:10:48 PM
PB's break point occured on november 6, 2012, "point final".
I would have to agree with Patrice that Bob was PowerBASIC and with any single developer effort, it's a risk you have to be willing to take. Unfortunately there isn't a commercial BASIC (other than VB.NET) that isn't susceptible to this nightmare that effects everyone at all levels.
My heart goes out to José Roca that has put so much hard work into making PowerBASIC worth using with his include files. I fear that effort is too closely married to PB to have any fate of it's own.
Open source is the solution to risk free development. IMHO
I find it disconcerting that so many are so quick to give up on PowerBasic (the company). Sure, no one can replace Bob, but it only makes sense he knew that too and did all he could to make sure that PowerBasic would survive if something happened to him (which it did). The transition is of course difficult, but I plan on giving them the benefit of the doubt.
While third party developers in the past may have been a degree of support to PowerBasic, likely now they can do even more. The power and quality of the PB compiler is obvious. I wrote EZGUI 4.0 (previous version) with PB 6.1 which as a number of generation behind whatever was current then. I could write stuff for some time using even PB 8.x if I wanted to. I am currently using PB 9.x and 10.x for development which have a long life span IMO (at least another 5 to 10 years at least). 32 bit CPU's are also now back in fashion, not because of PC's, but because of the shift to Tablets. It is all about mobile right now if you all haven't taken notice. Intel is pushing its Atom line significantly because of its low power usage and longer battery life. Many tablets will be running Atom CPU's in the years to come and Atom only comes in 32 bit versions. All the Windows 8 Atom based tablets will be 32 bits. Microsoft is also taking notice of customer feedback and at the last build conference they talked about Windows 8.1 being a better "blend" than Windows 8, meaning more commitment to the desktop.
I have tested a good bit of EZGUI 5.0's features on Windows 8 and the WIN32 API is alive and well. Well designed desktop apps built using PowerBasic likely can run circle around Metro apps. I am not impressed where Visual Studio is going and WINRT only furthers many of the bad choices Microsoft has made in software design. Object Oriented Programming rules, to its own destriment. PowerBasic, while supporting some OOP, can also be used very effecitively with 100% purely procedural style coding which produces smaller apps, faster apps and with less complexity. I am convinced of that. For the Microsoft world its all about Metro (Windows store apps) for tablets and I don't think that the VS programmers for the desktop really have a good handle on Touch and Tablets. For me, that is the direction I am going in. The next version of EZGUI will be touch enabled and designed specifically for building hybrid apps (both the desktop and tablets). PowerBasic, the current compiler, has many years of life in it.
Also the people at PowerBasic have not given up. True some of them have been in the shadows of Bob in the past, but Bob likely hired some very good people who have the same passion for Basic as he did. I have been impressed with Jim Bailey. He seems to be doing a good job, likely more managerial stuff that in the past for him. PowerBasic though will likely change. Now they are in the transition stage which Bob likely set for them in his plans. That will likely simply be following through on some premade plans. This will require adjustments at they try to take over Bob's responsiblities. As they do this though, at some point they will have to start making some choices of their own. I for one, plan to be supportive. PB has done me good for the last ten years. Hopefully it will be around for the next ten years.
Chris,
Companies investing in software development need to have a clear vision of the future, i couldn't see any future for PB that is already years back of all the other tools i am using.
Stop walking in circle around your nombrilla and look around to see what other companies already have in their shelves.
PB was handy to write small DLLs that wouldn't require any runtime.
But when it comes to create modern UI, it is a true nightmare.
Try to create something as simple as this with PB, and tell me how long it would take to you, even using EZGUI.
(http://forum.flyworship.co.uk/forum/public/Images/Flyer01.jpg)
...
Chris,
It's understandable that you are having a hard time accepting that PowerBASIC has come to the end of it's useful life. It was always 5 or more years behind the technology curve. Ignoring COM for years and then 64 bit was the fatal blows that became it's demise.. Bob passing just sealed the deal. I think it's obvious with your sale every other week that no one is buying PB or 3rd party add-ons. You need to find a real job or get behind a product with a future.
John
Chris,
my sympathies. I haven't built a career on PowerBASIC, in fact have earned very little with it, but I can tell you that a long time ago my entire IT career was built on another product, in this case an operating system. I had just started my first high-paid contract job after years in employment, and poof - my future (and that of my young family) disappeared when the manufacturer made it obselete. Fortunately I had picked up some developer skills along the way and these kept me going.
Without presuming to offer advice, I can at least reveal that I have survived by a) adapting b) mining "legacy" for every penny.
Good Luck!
Quote from: John Spikowski on July 13, 2013, 06:15:56 PM
Chris,
It's understandable that you are having a hard time accepting that PowerBASIC has come to the end of it's useful life. It was always 5 or more years behind the technology curve. Ignoring COM for years and then 64 bit was the fatal blows that became it's demise.. Bob passing just sealed the deal. I think it's obvious with your sale every other week that no one is buying PB or 3rd party add-ons. You need to find a real job or get behind a product with a future.
John
I find it impressive to see how many turn their back so quickly. PowerBASIC has always met or exceeded benchmarks of 99% of the compilers out there. As everyone has been told, 64bit will be real. But do you really know what advantages 64bit gives you? Microsoft even recommends that you install Office as a 32bit on 64bit machines.
I thank you Chris, your EZGui products are well written, and have helped us sell many products. And you are right, being a senior employee, I took over operations. I am an analyst, a programmer, and a teacher - learning marketing and trying to make the best decisions for PB have been a big challenge for me.
Our site and phones have been down since 3:00pm Sat. We moved into a bigger office and have hired an on-site IT specialist, a marketing genius, and some more tech support personnel.
We hope to have everything normalized in the next day or 2 (I hope today...) and when we get back to 100% we will be relaunching the beta forums for testing.
I sincerely regret the difficulties all PBers have endured. We are continuing to make newer and better compilers.
PB did not die Nov. 6, 2012. It was forced to change.
Jim Bailey
PowerBASIC Staff
Quote from: Jim Bailey on July 23, 2013, 04:55:09 PMlearning marketing and trying to make the best decisions for PB have been a big challenge for me.
There is no
try in business, Jim.
Quote from: Jim Bailey on July 23, 2013, 04:55:09 PM
Quote from: John Spikowski on July 13, 2013, 06:15:56 PM
Chris,
It's understandable that you are having a hard time accepting that PowerBASIC has come to the end of it's useful life. It was always 5 or more years behind the technology curve. Ignoring COM for years and then 64 bit was the fatal blows that became it's demise.. Bob passing just sealed the deal. I think it's obvious with your sale every other week that no one is buying PB or 3rd party add-ons. You need to find a real job or get behind a product with a future.
John
I find it impressive to see how many turn their back so quickly. PowerBASIC has always met or exceeded benchmarks of 99% of the compilers out there. As everyone has been told, 64bit will be real. But do you really know what advantages 64bit gives you? Microsoft even recommends that you install Office as a 32bit on 64bit machines.
I thank you Chris, your EZGui products are well written, and have helped us sell many products. And you are right, being a senior employee, I took over operations. I am an analyst, a programmer, and a teacher - learning marketing and trying to make the best decisions for PB have been a big challenge for me.
Our site and phones have been down since 3:00pm Sat. We moved into a bigger office and have hired an on-site IT specialist, a marketing genius, and some more tech support personnel.
We hope to have everything normalized in the next day or 2 (I hope today...) and when we get back to 100% we will be relaunching the beta forums for testing.
I sincerely regret the difficulties all PBers have endured. We are continuing to make newer and better compilers.
PB did not die Nov. 6, 2012. It was forced to change.
Jim Bailey
PowerBASIC Staff
Not all of us are leaving. Hoping for the best, preparing for the worst.
When the site gets re-settled and you have a chance, please post some of the near-future enhancement plans. I'm using only PBCC, but interested in hearing what's in the works for the flagship product, as well.
Great news Jim. Very pleased to hear that PowerBasic is alive and well.
Well there you have it. News from the PBICU.
QuoteI am an analyst, a programmer, and a teacher - learning marketing and trying to make the best decisions for PB have been a big challenge for me.
Quotehave hired an on-site IT specialist, a marketing genius
Better late than never. Now, let them get on with it and you step back and do what you are best at.
José should sleep better tonight. :)
Quote from: Chris Holbrook on July 23, 2013, 08:59:27 PM
There is no try in business, Jim.
FWIW, I appreciate the honesty of mr. Bailey quite a bit.
He must be in a very difficult situation and I appreciate he registered here.
On an unrelated note, I always wondered if a subscription type of license could work for PB. For example, I bought SwiftForth (a commercial Forth interpreter by Forth Inc.) a while ago for about 319 dollars (this offer is not available anymore AFAIK) and for one year I can always download every update they release (which they do regularly). Those updates bring both new features and bugfixes. After a year I've to pay about 120 USD annually for this service. I believe when they come out with a new major version I'd need to pay a high upgrade price, but this happens rarely. The version 2.x to 3.x .transition happened in 2006 for example.
Although I am definitely not a marketing expert, I can imagine a subscription model could bring a more steady flow of cash for a small company selling niche products.
Just a thought.
Quote from: Jim BaileyBut do you really know what advantages 64bit gives you?
x64 offers:
Twice the number of general purpose registers (each twice as large, ie, four times as much space)
Twice the number of SSE registers
SSE capability is guaranteed on x64 processors
Improved Application Binary Interface that can greatly benefit compilers utilizing proper optimizations
Lastly, there is the RAM benefit. Unfortunately, few compilers take full advantage of the benefits of x64.
Quote from: Jim BaileyI am an analyst, a programmer, and a teacher - learning marketing and trying to make the best decisions for PB have been a big challenge for me.
Never second guess yourself and do not let the vocal minority get to you.
Quote from: Christopher Boss... Atom only comes in 32 bit versions.
This is incorrect. As of Diamondville and Pineview, Atom supports x64 just fine. However, Microsoft does not always provide x64 drivers, hence some Atom setups can't run 64-bit versions of Windows. I bought
this computer (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002O3W44Q/) back in '09. It runs the 64-bit version of Windows 7 just fine.
QuotePB did not die Nov. 6, 2012. It was forced to change.
That sounds better then expected.
QuoteI find it impressive to see how many turn their back so quickly.
Reliability is important in bussiness. And when somebody shuts down, its a good idea to gibe customers a note.
Quoteon-site IT specialist, a marketing genius, and some more tech support personnel.
I wonder the marketing genius is already there - he should have known that.
Anyway - a marketing genius is just whats missing. Next he can take a look on "How Purebasic" got really profitable. Some hints:
1. They sold once and gave all further updates FREE
2. They sold in boxes in the shop
3. They assimilated all donations from Fans
4. They sold multiplatform
While actually "leasing Software" is theme. For example ... pay 2 US$ a month to have all Updates and new versions for PB free.
Quoteam an analyst, a programmer, and a teacher - learning marketing and trying to make the best decisions for PB have been a big challenge for me.
That's because management is not the same as analyzing, programming or teaching. It's its own professional discipline.
MCM
Thanks Jim for responding. So happy to hear PB is still alive. I'm not a professional programmer, just use programming to get things done that need to be automated. I loved vb1-6, hate .net, hate c in all its forms. Basic is a natural language to program in and PB made it come alive again. I'm looking forward to what's next.
John,So, let's see ... your quote from
2008:
QuoteI think PowerBASIC is at the end of it's useful life cycle ...
And now, your quote from
2013Quote...hard time accepting that PowerBASIC has come to the end of it's useful life
I can't wait for 2015 to see what you say then! :o
Quote from: Theo Gottwald on July 24, 2013, 12:11:52 PM
Anyway - a marketing genius is just whats missing. Next he can take a look on "How Purebasic" got really profitable. Some hints:
1. They sold once and gave all further updates FREE
2. They sold in boxes in the shop
3. They assimilated all donations from Fans
4. They sold multiplatform
The boxes sold in shops were fixed versions and could not be upgraded and did not qualify for free upgrades/updates. People were very upset to find they had to purchase the product again if they wanted to upgrade it. The boxed versions were
primarily aimed at game developers and were sold as a game development language.
PureBasic was so profitable that Fred could not make a living from it for a couple of years and had to take on a regular job and work on PureBasic in his free time. During this time PureBasic barely saw any updates. The "official" reason given for only working on PureBasic part time was that Fred was lonely and missed working with other people. That said, Fred now works on PureBasic full time.
PureBasic recently saw an influx of a couple of users from MiniBasic after its author was arrested and sent to prison and PureBasic saw an influx of people after Bob died. But, over the past few years, PureBasic has lost users and the community has dwindled as people have left for other languages that support mobile development. The PureBasic community is a ghost town when compared to how it used to be.
PureBasic is a good product, and Fred is a
very capable programmer and I have never regretted purchasing it and I still use it. But, it is not the only tool I use and never will be.
If its that bad anyway, i have no idea how Jim will pay all those new people in his bussiness.
I wonder what ideas the marketing genius will have to put out of his hat.
Hopefully something for large companies with yearly SLA's and a "Company Licence".
I do not see how enough money can be earned anyway with private customers.
Or sell special "Krypto versions" to NSA? Of course they need to be 64 bit .... :-X
For me it is clear that the PB market is splitted in two, just have a look at the poll i started in 2010
http://www.powerbasic.com/support/pbforums/showthread.php?t=43647 (http://www.powerbasic.com/support/pbforums/showthread.php?t=43647)
Professionnals are not relunctant to spend their money to buy programming tools that would match their level of espectation, because it is the foundation of their own business. Now the others, of course would have another approach.
The question is, what would be the most profitable market when you are a small company creating Windows compiler?
...
My suggestion would be to make PowerBASIC shareware with a $49.95 registered user fee. A $99.00 2 year free updates plan could be offered as well. If this sounds familiar, (Basic4Android) they seem to be doing something right. Getting the BASIC in the hands of as many users as you can and have an active community may be a way to still make a profit with a commercial BASIC.
Quote from: Patrice Terrier on July 29, 2013, 11:04:19 PM
The question is, what would be the most profitable market when you are a small company creating Windows compiler?
It has been a few years since your poll, and the market has changed. Now, the bigger question is, is it still profitable to produce a Windows only compiler? Personally, I will never purchase another compiler that does not support 64-bit and is not multi-platform, including ARM.
Quote from: John Spikowski on July 29, 2013, 11:23:07 PM
My suggestion would be to make PowerBASIC shareware with a $49.95 registered user fee. A $99.00 2 year free updates plan could be offered as well. If this sounds familiar, (Basic4Android) they seem to be doing something right. Getting the BASIC in the hands of as many users as you can and have an active community may be a way to still make a profit with a commercial BASIC.
You can't make this comparison. Well, you can, but it isn't a legitimate comparison. Last year, over nine billion ARM CPUs were sold, more CPUs than Intel has sold in its entire existence. Android is a legitimate market for indie developers and the shareware model works well for a compiler. Windows is increasingly becoming an enterprise-only market as the average home user is buying tablets and other mobile devices instead of Windows-based desktops and laptops. The shareware model has never been successful for compilers used in the enterprise market.
My thought about the tablet market (i have a SAMSUNG Galaxy Tab 2) is that after a fast growing it will slow down, once people would realise that without a stylus, it is almost impossible to easily navigate the web using only the fingers (almost 50% of the time you will mis-clicking the correct link, or enlarge abruptly the screen or scroll it unespectedly).
The only thing it is handy for, is keeping the kids quiet while they are playing angry birds, or watching a video, or listening net radio. Trying to send a mail without a mouse and a true keyboard is a real nightmare, all the people around me are coming back to their PC, to achieve all the basic tasks they have done for years. Using only the tablet for entertainment and some to replace their GPS :)
...
I have 4 Samsung Galaxy Tab 2 10.1 tablets (1 rooted / 3 stock) and I have a much different experience then you have had. I use a bluetooth keyboard and mouse. When I start my ConnectBot ssh terminal, I have a full Linux C/C++ development environment with cURL, SQLite3 and all the standard Linux console tools/utilities. There is little difference developing on my laptop or my non-rooted tablet. (other than more memory, speed and disk space)
I agree with you about needing a stylus, I use a stylus myself for a lot of things, although I do have a keyboard I use for coding and word processing. However, back when Bill Gates showed off the first Windows XP tablet with a stylus, nobody wanted it.
I see people of all ages with tablets when I am out, and in restaurants with free WiFi, etc. It is getting rarer to see laptops.
Businesses are using tablets a lot. The waitresses use them in restaurants for taking orders. They inventory services are using tablets for inventory now. Heck, even 7 or 8 years ago, when my cat was at the vet and had to get some X-Rays done, the vet had just upgraded their systems and had tablets that they brought into the exam room and showed you the xrays on the tablet instead of showing you traditional films.
I face the same situation as the original poster.
After nearly 30 years of software developing and being in contact with a great number of vendors this is the first time I feel abused as a customer.
I'm disappointed.
As a new user of the PB compiler I thought that it existed a basic documentation and support for us newcomers. It was also disappointing to find out that it does not exist.
If it wasn't for people like José Roca, Chris Boss, Gary Beene et al I would already have walked away from PB. I take this opportunity to thank You all for Your efforts to the community.
For 15 - 20 years ago or so a good tool found it's customers by its self, more or less. However, today it's not enough to have a great tool. If You want new customers it all starts with a good custom's support.
Sorry for my negative tone.
Kind regards,
Dennis
Quote from: Dennis Wallentin on August 25, 2013, 01:02:00 AM
If it wasn't for people like José Roca, Chris Boss, Gary Beene et al I would already have walked away from PB. I take this opportunity to thank You all for Your efforts to the community.
I echo this. A
HUGE thank you to José, Chris and Gary. These three individuals are invaluable to the community.
Quote
I'm disappointed.
Does your compiler not work as advertised Dennis?
In terms of documentation and community support, there appears to be lots of that. There aren't any mainstream books on PowerBASIC programming available, but if you've been programming for as long as you say, then likely you already understand basic concepts making such books unnecessary.
I believe Bob Zale always felt bad no one ever wrote a book on his PowerBASIC, but the language syntax is so similiar to Microsoft's older products that most folks from there brought a lot of capability along when they took up PowerBASIC. And even in the case of the C family languages, buying a book on C won't teach you, for example, how to write C based Win Api GUIs. You need to explore on your own for that. And in that specific case, applicable books such as Petzold's already exist which are applicable to PowerBASIC coding.
I'm sorry you're disappointed; perhaps because of the type of work you do, other tools serve you better.
QuoteHowever, today it's not enough to have a great tool. If You want new customers it all starts with a good custom's support.
I think Dennis's main point is in the sentence above. With every loss and restructuring there is shared frustration with all concerned.
And if you blink, your karma rating can go from a
+2 to a
-18 if an admin feels a reveiw of your karma log is in order. Sort of like the IRS doing an audit.
Good job on the target John! Made my evening! ;D
Quote from: Frederick J. Harris on August 27, 2013, 09:53:12 PM
I believe Bob Zale always felt bad no one ever wrote a book on his PowerBASIC...
There was at least one book on PB back in the DOS days, but like you said so much QB code could be typed in and run without any changes.
Same thing with GwBasic code that came free with MsDos.
And ditto for SmcBasic when I wrote my first programs for 8 bit computers in 1977.