Greetings;
I want to learn a Basic dialect, but there are so many to choose from. Ugh!
PB personal I think costs $99. RealBasic costs $199. And some of the others cost around $50.
What I really want is a small, fast, exec output file ('C' output would be ok too). And a great visual-dragDrop-IDE. I realize this is a PB friendly site. But surely you checked things out before landing on PB.
Oh yes, in line code assist would be great too, but not absolutely have to have.
I am coming from a object pascal background (novice).
Anyways, Thanks in advance! ...Vern
Why do I use PB?
Not because of its great IDE (I am sure the IDE's from those many competitors are much better). Try PureBasic. It includes even a Visual Designer.
On the other side there are VD's for PB available - but they want to be paid extra.
I use PB because it just works like a charm. I tell it "RUN" and it Runs.
No question, it will just do what I want.
I have also licenses from PureBasic and other Tools, but as my coding style is a bit different from mainstream, i experienced problems and errors whenever i tried it.
In the past I was soon at the point, where I don't know "Is that Bug from my code or is it from my Tool"?
With PowerBasic the answer is very clear. If there is a bug - the bug is in my code not in PB.
Thats in short why i always find myself back to PB after trying new things.
While its quite a year ago that i tried for example Purebasic. Looking at their Page, I just realize that they actually even have a 64 bit version.
If I'd be new to BASIC, I'd choose between one of the two, depending if native 64bit support is more important or just stability.
From the code-structure I'd say that PowerBasic is the "More Basic-like" thing of both.
Because its built around a rock solid string-engine.
Having all those little small helpers that are missing somewhere else. JOIN$, PARSE$, EXTRACT$, REMAIN$, REMOVE$, BUILD$ etc.
You can use dynamic strings for memory allocation and for anything.
This little difference makes things often more easy - at least to my taste.
PureBasic is much more like C. To me it looks as something between C and Basic, they do not have that complete, easy to use dynamic string support like PowerBasic. Maybe they don't need it?
I don't know but looking at the help file of the newest version of Purebasic, the overall style looks like a "Game-C" to me as it was before. Lots of support for Game-Programming. Big community.
If I'd really take it for a serious application?
Not so long i have PowerBasic. Maybe I will try if I need a native 64 bit EXE, because i have a PureBasic licence also for long time.
The string handling issue is really important. If you are an application programmer, you spend a lot of time minipulating strings. I don't think you can find more rock solid string handling anywhere. I use a lot of other programming languages in my work including C and C++, and there simply is no better string handling functions available anywhere else. I only use other programming languages on platforms not supported by PowerBASIC, such as Windows CE.
There are quite a few options available in terms of designing the GUI of your applications. There are at least four 3rd party add on products available, and PowerBASIC itself sells PBForms which many people use and like. As for myself, I mostly hand code everything (mostly cut & paste work actually, i.e., 'clip-board inheritance').
Another really big issue is that all the folks both here and in the PowerBASIC Forums are really knowledgable and helpful. Many members will spend hours really trying to help when problems develop. There is no absolute guarantee on this of course, but I've seen it countless times, and done it myself. For some reason PowerBASIC seems to draw both beginners and very experienced programmers. For beginners, the BASIC language is somewhat easier to get started with than somethic C like I guess. The more experienced programmers seem attracted to it I guess because when you need to do the really low level interaction with the internals of the operating system itself ( Win Api ), you have all the capability of C or C++. And of course there is always inline asm if you are inclined that way.
And like Theo said, the compiler itself is rock solid.
Have a sidenote. I have just taken a look on Purebasic x64 which looks like its a nice system with many features.
What dissapointed me a bit was, that i hoped i would get 54 bit in string lenght also. Which is not the case.
On my request to get a "c$=SPACE(5000000000) I did just get around 705 MB of string space instead of the expected 5 GB.
Looks to me that - while producing 64 bit executables and DLL's - the internal structures are still 32 bit somehow,
at least the used string engine.
And ... Purebasic is develope in VC 8. No wonder they have a large Sites with Bug reports (http://www.purebasic.fr/english/viewforum.php?f=4&sid=b34f7b4d17d75693d9ae12c73524b295).
See: http://www.purebasic.fr/blog/?cat=4
Please;
I wonder if someone could generate a simple Form ( + panel, + richedit, + ScrolledBox) generate a VD output file. And post what the output of VD looks like.
Thanks very much! ...Vernon Marsden
Have you seen there ... (http://www.jose.it-berater.org/smfforum/index.php?topic=2804.0)
See also here (http://www.planetsquires.com/firefly.htm)
and there (http://www.phnxthunder.com/)
and there (http://www.hellobasic.com/pwrdev/)
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Quote from: Vernon Marsden on June 25, 2009, 06:30:32 PM
Please;
I wonder if someone could generate a simple Form ( + panel, + richedit, + ScrolledBox) generate a VD output file. And post what the output of VD looks like.
Thanks very much! ...Vernon Marsden
For PwrDev showing the
generated PwrDev output is illegal (license)
+ the code is of no use since it is generated and compiled each time and never to be updated manually.
Patrice Terrier;
Thanks for these links.
...Vern
FireFly works the same way. The generated code is 99.99% of the time of little use to the user. The user should never have to manually go into the generated code to do any work. All of the code should be entered into the visual designer/code editor itself and then FireFly will assemble it all into the proper output format. This approach is very clean and hides all of the mundane inner workings of the generated code and allows the user to concentrate on only their code.
Hey Paul, having fun writting your new version? :)
Are you also into the 'inheritance' stuff?
I have lot's of fun rewritting things into oop, it's a nice challenge, PB's oop was a great addition to me at least.
Hi Edwin,
To be honest 90% of FireFly 3 was written before the new compiler was released. I toyed with the idea of going back and re-writing the guts of the engine to be OOP/Class based but it would be a huge task at this point. I really do want to change it at some point.... but not until maybe FireFly 3.5 :) ;D
I am using OOP when i have no other choice, for example in C#, however i found the procedural model more universal, especialy when you have to write DLL addons that must be compatible with a large scope of programming languages.
...
To be clear, i meant the internals for my PwrDev, i am not writting an OOP version like a VB or so.
The basic part is ordinary code, only optional code is written using com classes.
For the PwrDev internal code i am rewritting as much as i can to oop, for example i can fetch me a form which generates DDT code or i can fetch me a SDK style formobject which produces SDK code.
I threat DDT and SDK mode as two different 'compilers' and thus i can add a new inheritant for a different compiler later on.
The inheritance forces me to make all code the same.
'Get me a form for DDT and produce it's styles etc.'
Hello,
And FBSL (VB like) costs $0 for personal use.
It has a visual designer, code editor, extensible language, intel assembly compatible, tons of samples, tutorials, a forum and 8 years of experience.
What about giving it a try ? :)
Yours,
Gerome GUILLEMIN
http://www.fbsl.net
Of course. $0 is a competible price. For me and those using PB since long time, i doubt we want to change.
Even if they would pay me for that i won't use another car so long "my good old one" drives me where i want.
You know all the switches and buttons. You know how to come from A -> B.
So you don't change unless you get into a situation where you need to switch over to something because you just can't do it this way.
Generally I'd say that people are quite happy with PB because its a well thought programming system and very reliable. Anyway if the price is a important part of a decision there are alternatives for people not already used to PB.
As said ... long time PB-Users most often don't want to change over to something else.
But this may be true for most users of any reliable programming system or tool.
If you have enough money, then consider WinDev, it is by far the best visual designer you can imagine, and the syntax is very similar to the BASIC dialect.
Moreover you can choose to program using either procedural or OOP mode, there are many templates ready to use, and it does almost everything except coffee.
You can interface WinDev with PowerBASIC, C, C++, VB, .NET, OCX, Win32 or Win64 DLL, create 32 or 64-bit code, JAVA, PHP, SQL, ORACLE, AS400, etc.
...
Does it produces Standalone EXE Files or do they need special Installations?
Stand alone EXE with some mandatory DLL.
Mainly like VB6 executables that need VB6 engine dll.
Do you also use it, Eros?
How big in size is such a distributable Package with EXE and DLL ?
Theo
See an example of WL systax here:
http://www.jose.it-berater.org/smfforum/index.php?topic=3157.0
and here:
http://www.jose.it-berater.org/smfforum/index.php?topic=3178.0
And a running WD project here:
http://www.jose.it-berater.org/smfforum/index.php?topic=1595.msg5763#msg5763
Assuming that you want to mix it with your PowerBASIC DLL, to have the best of the two worlds ;D
...
Gerôme
I shall give a try to your FSBL, looks like you have done a tremendous work with it.
...
Quote from: Patrice Terrier on November 19, 2009, 10:31:42 AM
Gerôme
I shall give a try to your FSBL, looks like you have done a tremendous work with it.
...
Thanks a lot Patrice :)
The team is made of 3 developers with competences in C ans ASM, we still are developping FBSL since 2001... :)
You can make stand alone executables or use the tiny version that is linked against a DLL, the first one allows you to spread stand alone program and the tiny version allows you to develop several tiny executables (minimal 7 Kb) shipped with the DLL.
Two good french and english tutorials are provided as well as a 650 manual page I've written in english (sorry for my typos), 200+ samples plus a support forum !
The syntax is closer to VB, PB and many other good ones!
Now it's up to you !
Yours,
Gerome GUILLEMIN
http://www.fbsl.net
Gérôme,
You BASS example doesn't work on 7, and the provided BASS.DLL version is obsolete.
You should also check the TUTORIAL link on your web site with different browser.
I think you should have a direct link from the main page, to the latest FBSL version.
We can't figure, from the main page, where to find it!
...
Quote from: Patrice Terrier on November 19, 2009, 12:12:18 PM
Gérôme,
You BASS example doesn't work on 7, and the provided BASS.DLL version is obsolete.
You should also check the TUTORIAL link on your web site with different browser.
I think you should have a direct link from the main page, to the latest FBSL version.
We can't figure, from the main page, where to find it!
...
Patrice,
I've installed Win7 32 and 64 onto my PC and I've tested almost of my samples without any problems, but not tested the bass one yet...
What is the real problem with the tutorial link please ?
Thanks
see the attached screenshot.
...
Quote from: Patrice Terrier on November 19, 2009, 02:59:40 PM
see the attached screenshot.
...
This is just a plugin problem, my PDF reader allows to see embedded PDF files from IE and FFox without any problem, even under Win 7.
I have downloaded the latest ACROBAT version, and i did try with IE8, FireFox, Chrome.
They all have the same problem. The maximum speed for my Internet connection is less than 1 Mb.
...
Quote from: Patrice Terrier on November 19, 2009, 04:21:13 PM
I have downloaded the latest ACROBAT version, and i did try with IE8, FireFox, Chrome.
They all have the same problem. The maximum speed for my Internet connection is less than 1 Mb.
...
So you were never able to open a PDF from within your IExplorer weren't you ?
Not so bad, just download it and open it :)
Have fun !
Quote from: Theo Gottwald on November 19, 2009, 08:08:58 AM
Do you also use it, Eros?
How big in size is such a distributable Package with EXE and DLL ?
No I do not use it. I just evaluated the possibility to use it in my company.
QuoteAssuming that you want to mix it with your PowerBASIC DLL, to have the best of the two worlds
It definitely looks interesting, Patrice. But the price is also in another Class then the tools i am currently using.
So there must be something with it.
Yes, it is a professionnal environment with so many features, that it is 100 years ahead of the tools you are currently using.
It is not bug's free, however there are always workaround, especialy when you are able to write your own DLL.
You will be amazed to see the number of developpers world-wide that are using it.
All the largest French companies and administrations are using it, and it is the second language teached in the university here.
...
Some people not too happy with Windev
http://forum.mysnip.de/read.php?27131,41079
Carlo,
I know exactly the pros and cons of WinDev, and i do not change my opinion.
Some of the applications i have written with it, would have taken me years to write with another language, and for me this is the best argument in favor of PC-Soft.
In other words: I do not restrict myself to one programming language, and i always select the one that is more suitable to achieve a specific task in the shortest delay.
...
Hi Patrice
Firstly thanks for bringing Windev to our attention.
I have been investigating Windev because I do a lot of data bound development and need to provide better UI with less development time. My colleague has done some Visual Studio samples and so far I am impressed, but means I have to make a choice of which my next language / dev environment will be. I am leaning towards Visual studio after reading that and other posts ... also opened my eyes to controls available for VS with this link http://www.infragistics.com/FullMovie.aspx?id=3402
I have downloaded Windev Express to play a little... Will update in a few weeks as I am not rushing this choice.
what puzzle me more with VS2005 and C#, is the garbage collector that you have no way to control, i don't know if this has been fixed or not on VS 2009.
Also i found that Dot.NET is not good to do low level programming as i am doing with GDImage or WinLIFT.
About WinDev, you can download many examples from my web site, and because most of them are toward to GDImage, then you will be able to make some good comparison ;)
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